Hurricane Rita, Katrina; source of energy and effect on water temp

[Joe Fischer]

There seems to be a serious lack of understanding by
TV personalities about how a tropical cyclone gets it's energy, how
that effects the water temperature, and how that energy translates
into lower atmospheric pressure, higher winds, etc.

First, the wind of the cyclonic causes evaporation
of the water at the surface by at least two processes, it carries
away the air with equalized "vapor pressure", and the difference
in temperature of the warm water and the cooler storm air temperatures
increases evaporation.

Evaporation is the mechanism for the removal of
energy from the water surface and transportation to the atmosphere.

FOR EACH POUND OF WATER EVAPORATED
FROM THE SURFACE, ABOUT 1,000 BTU OF HEAT ENERGY
IS CARRIED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE.

It only takes evaporation of 100 pounds of water;
per hour, to equal the output of a home furnace

Next, humid air has a lower specific gravity than
dry air, so it exerts less pressure dur to gravity (gravity is the
power that creates atmospheric pressure, without gravity the
air would escape into space).

The lower localized atmospheric pressure causes
surrounding higher pressure air to move toward the center of
the lower pressure area, and the rotation of the Earth causes
the motion toward the center to translate to a rotation, the direction
of the rotation depending on the hemisphere, North or South.

This is a simplistic description of how the energy
gets into the storm and how it gets organized.


The conversion of this humid air to heat released
into the upper airr can only take place with condensation,
and the accompaning precipitation (meteorologists have
developed a more complicated description of water vapor,
clouds, and the production of rain, sleet, hail and snow).

A factor not fully appreciated is that the
precipitation reduces local atomspheric pressure by the
conversion of a larger volume of water vapor into a smaller
volume of condensed water!!!!!!
This is part of the process of the extreme lowering
of atmospheric pressure in the center of the cyclonic, or rather
in the area of the greatest precipitation rate.

Tropical cyclonics probably do not produce much
hail, where tornados do produce a substantial amount of hail,
resulting in a much greater rate of transfer of energy, and the
resulting higher wind speeds.

But the massive amounts of precipation over large
areas in a tropical cyclonic can reduce the atmospheric pressure
over a large area substantially, primarily by the reduction of
volume of the water that is airborn, in addition to the lesser
specific gravity of the humid air before precipitation.

And another mechanism contributes to the volume
of humid air water vapor precipation.
The condensation-precipitation releases the 1,000
BTU per pound back into the surrounding air, causing it to
move upward due to bouyancy, and as surrounding humid
air is carried upward, it interacts with colder air and colder
falling rain, accelerating the condensation-precipation.

All these processes, working together, cool the
water surface, create high rotational winds, great amounts
of precipation, and heating of the upper atmosphere.

Joe Fischer

[~steve (east tn)]

Post by Joe Fischer
There seems to be a serious lack of understanding by
TV personalities about how a tropical cyclone gets it's energy, how
that effects the water temperature, and how that energy translates
into lower atmospheric pressure, higher winds, etc.
First, the wind of the cyclonic causes evaporation
of the water at the surface by at least two processes, it carries
away the air with equalized "vapor pressure", and the difference
in temperature of the warm water and the cooler storm air temperatures
increases evaporation.
Evaporation is the mechanism for the removal of
energy from the water surface and transportation to the atmosphere.
FOR EACH POUND OF WATER EVAPORATED
FROM THE SURFACE, ABOUT 1,000 BTU OF HEAT ENERGY
IS CARRIED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE.
It only takes evaporation of 100 pounds of water;
per hour, to equal the output of a home furnace
Next, humid air has a lower specific gravity than
dry air, so it exerts less pressure dur to gravity (gravity is the
power that creates atmospheric pressure, without gravity the
air would escape into space).
The lower localized atmospheric pressure causes
surrounding higher pressure air to move toward the center of
the lower pressure area, and the rotation of the Earth causes
the motion toward the center to translate to a rotation, the direction
of the rotation depending on the hemisphere, North or South.
This is a simplistic description of how the energy
gets into the storm and how it gets organized.
The conversion of this humid air to heat released
into the upper airr can only take place with condensation,
and the accompaning precipitation (meteorologists have
developed a more complicated description of water vapor,
clouds, and the production of rain, sleet, hail and snow).
A factor not fully appreciated is that the
precipitation reduces local atomspheric pressure by the
conversion of a larger volume of water vapor into a smaller
volume of condensed water!!!!!!
This is part of the process of the extreme lowering
of atmospheric pressure in the center of the cyclonic, or rather
in the area of the greatest precipitation rate.
Tropical cyclonics probably do not produce much
hail, where tornados do produce a substantial amount of hail,
resulting in a much greater rate of transfer of energy, and the
resulting higher wind speeds.
But the massive amounts of precipation over large
areas in a tropical cyclonic can reduce the atmospheric pressure
over a large area substantially, primarily by the reduction of
volume of the water that is airborn, in addition to the lesser
specific gravity of the humid air before precipitation.
And another mechanism contributes to the volume
of humid air water vapor precipation.
The condensation-precipitation releases the 1,000
BTU per pound back into the surrounding air, causing it to
move upward due to bouyancy, and as surrounding humid
air is carried upward, it interacts with colder air and colder
falling rain, accelerating the condensation-precipation.
All these processes, working together, cool the
water surface, create high rotational winds, great amounts
of precipation, and heating of the upper atmosphere.
Joe Fischer

Excellent discussion!
thanks
~steve

[Joe Fischer]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:49:33 -0400, "~steve (east tn)"

Post by ~steve (east tn)

.......... how a tropical cyclone gets it's energy, how
that effects the water temperature, and how that energy translates
into lower atmospheric pressure, higher winds, etc.

Excellent discussion!
thanks
~steve

Thanks for saying that, I forgot to mention that the
coldness of the air high up is important, because very little
happens unless there substantial differences in temperature.


Unfortunately, Rita may present things never seen
before, and that possibility may hinge on just how cold the
air is at the cloud tops.

I really feel that some better designation is needed
for these monster storms, a cat 4 or 5 seems to mean little to
the not so bright that refuse to leave.

Perhaps adding a dash and then the width of the
right quadrant destruction path (only for cat 3 and up), making
Katrina a 4-100, and Rita could be a 5- 120, hopefully NOT.

Joe Fischer

[Teshika Holmes]

Don't forget about the prevailing winds aloft to "steer" the storm in its
directions. There are times when they say the hurricane is going one way and
it goes into the opposite direction.
That was an excellent discussion. We should have more like this.
Teshika
--
Teshika Holmes

Post by Joe Fischer
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:49:33 -0400, "~steve (east tn)"

Post by ~steve (east tn)

.......... how a tropical cyclone gets it's energy, how
that effects the water temperature, and how that energy translates
into lower atmospheric pressure, higher winds, etc.

Excellent discussion!
thanks
~steve

Thanks for saying that, I forgot to mention that the
coldness of the air high up is important, because very little
happens unless there substantial differences in temperature.
Unfortunately, Rita may present things never seen
before, and that possibility may hinge on just how cold the
air is at the cloud tops.
I really feel that some better designation is needed
for these monster storms, a cat 4 or 5 seems to mean little to
the not so bright that refuse to leave.
Perhaps adding a dash and then the width of the
right quadrant destruction path (only for cat 3 and up), making
Katrina a 4-100, and Rita could be a 5- 120, hopefully NOT.
Joe Fischer

[Joe Fischer]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:31:42 -0700, "Teshika Holmes"

Post by Teshika Holmes
Don't forget about the prevailing winds aloft to "steer" the storm in its
directions. There are times when they say the hurricane is going one way and
it goes into the opposite direction.

Rita was a surprise, it did not appear to be curving at all,
yet made landfall at the edge or outside early predicted path
cone.

The only good thing is the much longer warning time,
compared to Katrina. Too bad some always refuse to
believe the surge depth prediction and end up in real trouble.

I still don't understand the big evacuation problem in
evacuation from low elevations areas.
All the people being urged to leave Houston and
New Orleans seems too drastic a reaction, although I
would prefer to leave on my own, there has to be
plenty of space in large downtown buildings to
accomodate those in surge prone areas.

Perhaps state laws should be changed to allow
mayors or governors to commadier entire buildings on
12 hour notice, and there definitely needs to be
emergency toilet kits made up of 5 gallon buckets
and some plastic accessories.
Food and water should not be a problem for
even the quickest plan, if every individual plans
for their needs.

I have done a lot of remodeling in the last 10 years,
and now use nothing but 3 and 4 inch screws instead
of nails, there has to be a way to avoid the extreme
damage and the cost to FEMA of paying contractors
to do the things individuals could do for themselves.
But I live 50 feet above the water line.

I also don't understand so many people going
up I-45, it would seem to have made more sense to
head east or west.

It all appears to me as just poor planning, and
it seems to be easier to just order mass evacuation
instead of having a sector by sector plan to get
people to the closest safe haven from the surge
and 100 MPH-plus winds. People at 50 feet
elevation and above should have their own storm
shelters in their homes, even steel angle iron
frames anchored in tons of concrete if not
in the basement.


Some of the ideas for preventing tropical
cyclones, or reducing their intensity are pure folly,
most of the energy comes from humid air feeding
in as seen in the "feeder bands", only a part comes
from the water surface.

The amount of energy involved is millions
of times greater than any chemical scheme could
reduce. The only possibility of reducing intensity
in certain locations might be to stir up the colder
water at depth to reduce the surface temperature,
I think water temperatures stratify in layers if not
mixed, and it should be easy to measure the
temperature at various depths.

In really deep water, some old WWII depth
charges rigged for extreme depths should stir up
the water. But any attempt to control the weather
may cause bigger problems than it solves.

With modern tunneling equipment, it would be
easy to construct huge tunnels to transport either
warm water or air to colder regions, and vice versa,
but that would probably only work for enclosed
space temperature control, the amount of heat
energy in the tropics, both in the air and in the
water is just too great to modify in even a small
percentage.

More smaller tropical cyclones would transport
the heat away from the tropics before enoygh builds
up to produce a monster.

But clear skies let the sun warm the water,
and the colder upper atmosphere in the fall is what
causes the cyclone season to last so long.

A lot of long range planning needs to be done,
sooner or later the population centers need to move
closer to the equator, people need to live closer to
where they work, and a realistic energy plan needs
to be developed.
In the mid 1970s there was talk of gasoline from
coal and shale oil, and ethanol like Brazil uses, but
oil always gets cheaper when alternate energy
becomes affordable. Every power plant could be
distilling ethanol instead of just heating rivers and
lakes. Gasoline is a relevant subject in a hurricane
discussion because of the poor choice of refinery
locations. Because of Katrina and Rita, many will
not drive as much as before, and other changes
will be made.
In the 1950s there was an active program to
decentralize so atomic war would not be as bad,
but that has apparently been forgotten.
Bomb shelters also make good hurricane
shelters provided they are not close to sea level.
It is easier to hide than to run.

Joe Fischer

[Teshika Holmes]

I saw that Rita was a surprise. The storm went outside of the cone. It was
also told that Katrina was not going to be a major problems and now look.
The storm killed a lot of people who thought that they were ok.

The evacuations went ok for hurricane Rita as a result of everyone along the
coastal areas being told to evacuate. There was a lot of chaos while the
evacuation took place. My heart goes out to those that have lost their loved
ones on the bus that caught fire. It was hard to get help to them given they
were on a very crowded interstate.
They should have opened the lanes up in the opposite direction so they can
get traffic unjammed and faster evacuation routes.

Teshika
--
Teshika Holmes

Post by Joe Fischer
On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:31:42 -0700, "Teshika Holmes"

Post by Teshika Holmes
Don't forget about the prevailing winds aloft to "steer" the storm in its
directions. There are times when they say the hurricane is going one way and
it goes into the opposite direction.

Rita was a surprise, it did not appear to be curving at all,
yet made landfall at the edge or outside early predicted path
cone.
The only good thing is the much longer warning time,
compared to Katrina. Too bad some always refuse to
believe the surge depth prediction and end up in real trouble.
I still don't understand the big evacuation problem in
evacuation from low elevations areas.
All the people being urged to leave Houston and
New Orleans seems too drastic a reaction, although I
would prefer to leave on my own, there has to be
plenty of space in large downtown buildings to
accomodate those in surge prone areas.
Perhaps state laws should be changed to allow
mayors or governors to commadier entire buildings on
12 hour notice, and there definitely needs to be
emergency toilet kits made up of 5 gallon buckets
and some plastic accessories.
Food and water should not be a problem for
even the quickest plan, if every individual plans
for their needs.
I have done a lot of remodeling in the last 10 years,
and now use nothing but 3 and 4 inch screws instead
of nails, there has to be a way to avoid the extreme
damage and the cost to FEMA of paying contractors
to do the things individuals could do for themselves.
But I live 50 feet above the water line.
I also don't understand so many people going
up I-45, it would seem to have made more sense to
head east or west.
It all appears to me as just poor planning, and
it seems to be easier to just order mass evacuation
instead of having a sector by sector plan to get
people to the closest safe haven from the surge
and 100 MPH-plus winds. People at 50 feet
elevation and above should have their own storm
shelters in their homes, even steel angle iron
frames anchored in tons of concrete if not
in the basement.
Some of the ideas for preventing tropical
cyclones, or reducing their intensity are pure folly,
most of the energy comes from humid air feeding
in as seen in the "feeder bands", only a part comes
from the water surface.
The amount of energy involved is millions
of times greater than any chemical scheme could
reduce. The only possibility of reducing intensity
in certain locations might be to stir up the colder
water at depth to reduce the surface temperature,
I think water temperatures stratify in layers if not
mixed, and it should be easy to measure the
temperature at various depths.
In really deep water, some old WWII depth
charges rigged for extreme depths should stir up
the water. But any attempt to control the weather
may cause bigger problems than it solves.
With modern tunneling equipment, it would be
easy to construct huge tunnels to transport either
warm water or air to colder regions, and vice versa,
but that would probably only work for enclosed
space temperature control, the amount of heat
energy in the tropics, both in the air and in the
water is just too great to modify in even a small
percentage.
More smaller tropical cyclones would transport
the heat away from the tropics before enoygh builds
up to produce a monster.
But clear skies let the sun warm the water,
and the colder upper atmosphere in the fall is what
causes the cyclone season to last so long.
A lot of long range planning needs to be done,
sooner or later the population centers need to move
closer to the equator, people need to live closer to
where they work, and a realistic energy plan needs
to be developed.
In the mid 1970s there was talk of gasoline from
coal and shale oil, and ethanol like Brazil uses, but
oil always gets cheaper when alternate energy
becomes affordable. Every power plant could be
distilling ethanol instead of just heating rivers and
lakes. Gasoline is a relevant subject in a hurricane
discussion because of the poor choice of refinery
locations. Because of Katrina and Rita, many will
not drive as much as before, and other changes
will be made.
In the 1950s there was an active program to
decentralize so atomic war would not be as bad,
but that has apparently been forgotten.
Bomb shelters also make good hurricane
shelters provided they are not close to sea level.
It is easier to hide than to run.
Joe Fischer

[Joe Fischer]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:58:37 -0700, "Teshika Holmes"

Post by Teshika Holmes
I saw that Rita was a surprise. The storm went outside of the cone. It was
also told that Katrina was not going to be a major problems and now look.
The storm killed a lot of people who thought that they were ok.

Even thought the tracks were close together near the Florida
Keys, there was a huge difference in warning time.
I think both curved North East more than predicted.

If the local officials are some of the people who think
everything is ok and nothing is going to be different or be as
bad as the experts say, then their words and attitude may
influence many people and get people killed.


But sometimes there is just no warning time,
as this storm link describes;

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/casepages/jul41969page.htm

I was rightn where the C is, and with no warning at all,
the wind started, and I turned left into a side street.
Immediately I saw dozens of trees, many a meter in
diameter, fall across the street, so I pulled in back of the
brick store building on the corner, and told my two young
sons to lay on the floor in the back seat.

The local gusts were about 135 miles per hour,
much higher than the 110 MPH of a hurricane I was in
at Kessler Field, Biloxi, Mississippi in 1946 or 1947.

Lakewood Ohio had a hundred big trees on
each street, and about 20 or 30 percent of them fell,
it was a mess for a month.
But at least I didn't have to worry about a storm
surge, most of the people killed were under trees.


More people from the Houston area should
have gone to San Antonio instead of Dallas, there
are about six military bases there, and that would
been a good place to have food and water stored
for them.

Better planning will be done, hopefully this
kind of thing won't happen again for years, it is a
rare thing for a hurricane to hit a big city, the track
maps make the Gulf of Mexico, and even Texas
look small, but the coast is 1000 miles long, and
the eye is usually only about 30 miles wide.

Joe Fischer

[Teshika Holmes]

Better planning will be done, hopefully this

Post by Joe Fischer
kind of thing won't happen again for years, it is a
rare thing for a hurricane to hit a big city, the track
maps make the Gulf of Mexico, and even Texas
look small, but the coast is 1000 miles long, and
the eye is usually only about 30 miles wide.

Given, in this day and age, there would be more technology out there that
would aid in planning in case of Category 5 Hurricanes that would hit the
gulf states. Unfortunately, that was not the case with Katrina. In the case
of Rita, yes, lesson learned from the recent hurricane Katrina. There was
plenty of planning to get people out of there. That is one of the reasons
the former FEMA director should not have resigned when he did. He has showed
that there was not enough funding to go into helping the people of
Mississippi, Alabama (Mobile area), and New Orleans out. There was lack of
planning, and no lessons learned from Hurricanes Camille (1969) and Andrew
(1992). There should have been a disaster preparedness plan in place for
the entire state. Now with all this aftermath going on, many states and
coming up with plans to help save as many lives as they can during a
disaster.
I was stationed at Keesler AFB, MS back in 1999. I understand what it is
like being in tropical storms and hurricanes.
Teshika
--
Teshika Holmes

Post by Joe Fischer
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:58:37 -0700, "Teshika Holmes"

Post by Teshika Holmes
I saw that Rita was a surprise. The storm went outside of the cone. It was
also told that Katrina was not going to be a major problems and now look.
The storm killed a lot of people who thought that they were ok.

Even thought the tracks were close together near the Florida
Keys, there was a huge difference in warning time.
I think both curved North East more than predicted.
If the local officials are some of the people who think
everything is ok and nothing is going to be different or be as
bad as the experts say, then their words and attitude may
influence many people and get people killed.
But sometimes there is just no warning time,
as this storm link describes;
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/casepages/jul41969page.htm
I was rightn where the C is, and with no warning at all,
the wind started, and I turned left into a side street.
Immediately I saw dozens of trees, many a meter in
diameter, fall across the street, so I pulled in back of the
brick store building on the corner, and told my two young
sons to lay on the floor in the back seat.
The local gusts were about 135 miles per hour,
much higher than the 110 MPH of a hurricane I was in
at Kessler Field, Biloxi, Mississippi in 1946 or 1947.
Lakewood Ohio had a hundred big trees on
each street, and about 20 or 30 percent of them fell,
it was a mess for a month.
But at least I didn't have to worry about a storm
surge, most of the people killed were under trees.
More people from the Houston area should
have gone to San Antonio instead of Dallas, there
are about six military bases there, and that would
been a good place to have food and water stored
for them.
Better planning will be done, hopefully this
kind of thing won't happen again for years, it is a
rare thing for a hurricane to hit a big city, the track
maps make the Gulf of Mexico, and even Texas
look small, but the coast is 1000 miles long, and
the eye is usually only about 30 miles wide.
Joe Fischer

[rick]

***@katrina-relief-of-central-florida.org

Good day.

My brother and I filled up a U Haul truck (28 feet long) on Sept 1&2 in
Tallahassee Florida and headed west. We did not know where we would end up,
we just knew that people were in need. We ended up distributing our load
of food, water, baby supplies etc via the Salvation Army in Mississippi.
9 tons worth. We then purchased heavy equipment (chain saws and
generators) and passed that equipment out in Gulfport, Biloxi and
Hattiesburg.
Our third trip was to supply a MASH-type clinic at the Biloxi Unified
Command Center with prescription medications and vaccines (hepatits and
tetanus).
We continue to be involved in volunteer relief efforts in Mississippi
and Louisianna.

I was amazed at the diversity of freelance aid offered to the impacted
peoples that first few weeks. Heartened and amazed. Disappointed at every
level of government's failure to provide, and very impressed with the
various diverse groups on the ground doing what they could. From a
couple of
middle aged Florida brothers to large chruch groups, it seems to me that
individual people just decided to do the job.
For a couple of agnostics, we spent a whole lot of time working with
faith-based groups and that was one of the amazing experiences for both
of us.
We were impressed by the Salvation Army and disappointed by the Red
Cross, FEMA and the national media.

I am very interested in putting together a book of volunteer relief
experiences. Anyone who wants to send me their stories, I would love to
have them.
This is not a profit-making efforts; if the book ever gets written and
published I will put 100% of the receipts to storm relief. The work title is
"Holy to Hotheads: Feelance relief to Katrina victims." I hope to
collect at least a couple of dozen first person accounts.

My email is ***@katrina-relief-of-central-florida.org. Please, write up
your experience and send it to me. Please feel free to cross-post or
forward this message.

Thank you for your efforts.

Rick Davis

[George]

Post by Joe Fischer
There seems to be a serious lack of understanding by
TV personalities about how a tropical cyclone gets it's energy, how
that effects the water temperature, and how that energy translates
into lower atmospheric pressure, higher winds, etc.
First, the wind of the cyclonic causes evaporation
of the water at the surface by at least two processes, it carries
away the air with equalized "vapor pressure", and the difference
in temperature of the warm water and the cooler storm air temperatures
increases evaporation.
Evaporation is the mechanism for the removal of
energy from the water surface and transportation to the atmosphere.
FOR EACH POUND OF WATER EVAPORATED
FROM THE SURFACE, ABOUT 1,000 BTU OF HEAT ENERGY
IS CARRIED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE.
It only takes evaporation of 100 pounds of water;
per hour, to equal the output of a home furnace
Next, humid air has a lower specific gravity than
dry air, so it exerts less pressure dur to gravity (gravity is the
power that creates atmospheric pressure, without gravity the
air would escape into space).
The lower localized atmospheric pressure causes
surrounding higher pressure air to move toward the center of
the lower pressure area, and the rotation of the Earth causes
the motion toward the center to translate to a rotation, the direction
of the rotation depending on the hemisphere, North or South.
This is a simplistic description of how the energy
gets into the storm and how it gets organized.
The conversion of this humid air to heat released
into the upper airr can only take place with condensation,
and the accompaning precipitation (meteorologists have
developed a more complicated description of water vapor,
clouds, and the production of rain, sleet, hail and snow).
A factor not fully appreciated is that the
precipitation reduces local atomspheric pressure by the
conversion of a larger volume of water vapor into a smaller
volume of condensed water!!!!!!
This is part of the process of the extreme lowering
of atmospheric pressure in the center of the cyclonic, or rather
in the area of the greatest precipitation rate.
Tropical cyclonics probably do not produce much
hail, where tornados do produce a substantial amount of hail,
resulting in a much greater rate of transfer of energy, and the
resulting higher wind speeds.
But the massive amounts of precipation over large
areas in a tropical cyclonic can reduce the atmospheric pressure
over a large area substantially, primarily by the reduction of
volume of the water that is airborn, in addition to the lesser
specific gravity of the humid air before precipitation.
And another mechanism contributes to the volume
of humid air water vapor precipation.
The condensation-precipitation releases the 1,000
BTU per pound back into the surrounding air, causing it to
move upward due to bouyancy, and as surrounding humid
air is carried upward, it interacts with colder air and colder
falling rain, accelerating the condensation-precipation.
All these processes, working together, cool the
water surface, create high rotational winds, great amounts
of precipation, and heating of the upper atmosphere.
Joe Fischer

Joe, I know it has been a while since I was in college chemistry class, but
isn't the specific gravity of humid air ***higher*** than the specific
gravity of dry air? Think about it. When you add water to air, you are
increasing it's density, since water is more dense than air. Since
specific gravity of a substance is a comparison of its density to that of
water (which has a specific gravity of 1.00), plain old atmospheric air is
less dense than water. Add water in the form of vapor to the air, and
you've increase its density, and hence its specific gravity. Correct me if
I'm mistaken.

[Joe Fischer]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:41:15 GMT, "George"

[snip]

Post by Joe Fischer
Next, humid air has a lower specific gravity than
dry air, so it exerts less pressure dur to gravity (gravity is the
power that creates atmospheric pressure, without gravity the
air would escape into space).

Joe, I know it has been a while since I was in college chemistry class, but
isn't the specific gravity of humid air ***higher*** than the specific
gravity of dry air? Think about it. When you add water to air, you are
increasing it's density, since water is more dense than air.

Sometimes wrong information is given in school. :-)

There is no well defined relationship between gases,
liquids and solids composed of solutions or mixtures of elements
or composition.

Salt water is more dense than fresh water, but apparently
water vapor molecules have a larger volume than oxygen and
nitrogen mixtures.

Since
specific gravity of a substance is a comparison of its density to that of
water (which has a specific gravity of 1.00), plain old atmospheric air is
less dense than water. Add water in the form of vapor to the air, and
you've increase its density, and hence its specific gravity. Correct me if
I'm mistaken.

You are hereby corrected. :-)

I had a physics teacher that said in a lecture that a
3-4-5 triangle is a 30, 60, 90 angle, and I felt bad because
I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

A lot of this is connected directly to gravity, or rather
the underlying process that creates gravity.
Clouds would seem to be evidence that wator vapor
is lighter than air, in fact it is possible some way for water
droplets or even ice crystals to "float", which is harder
to understand.

I think steam at atmospheric pressure has about
200 times the volume of water, and at constant standard
temperature and pressure, there are the same number of
molecules in a given volume, making density comparisons
confusing.


It is amazing just how many things will be bouyed
by moving air, and even more amazing how many things
can be moved by moving water.

The mayor with the death wish may find out a lot
about these things, since the wind, surge and waves will
probably be moving from east to west, not from straight
out in the gulf, it is possible boats, barges, floating oil
rigs, partially full tanks from refinery tank famrs, and
no telling how many wooden houses and treas, will
probably be carried along with the wind and waves
at 50 or 60 MPH, and that could demolish any building
no matter how solid, even if there is no burning fuel or
chemicals on the surface of the water.

People should get away from the bay(ou)s,
there could be unimaginable things happen, none
of them good.

I think people that understand physics and
chemistry well are the ones who evacuate first,
I can imagine things in a hurricane that scare
me to think about it, and Rita will exceed my
imagination by a great amount.

Joe Fischer

[George]

Post by Joe Fischer
On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:41:15 GMT, "George"

[snip]

Post by Joe Fischer
Next, humid air has a lower specific gravity than
dry air, so it exerts less pressure dur to gravity (gravity is the
power that creates atmospheric pressure, without gravity the
air would escape into space).

Joe, I know it has been a while since I was in college chemistry class, but
isn't the specific gravity of humid air ***higher*** than the specific
gravity of dry air? Think about it. When you add water to air, you are
increasing it's density, since water is more dense than air.

Sometimes wrong information is given in school. :-)
There is no well defined relationship between gases,
liquids and solids composed of solutions or mixtures of elements
or composition.
Salt water is more dense than fresh water, but apparently
water vapor molecules have a larger volume than oxygen and
nitrogen mixtures.

Since
specific gravity of a substance is a comparison of its density to that of
water (which has a specific gravity of 1.00), plain old atmospheric air is
less dense than water. Add water in the form of vapor to the air, and
you've increase its density, and hence its specific gravity. Correct me if
I'm mistaken.

You are hereby corrected. :-)
I had a physics teacher that said in a lecture that a
3-4-5 triangle is a 30, 60, 90 angle, and I felt bad because
I couldn't keep my mouth shut.
A lot of this is connected directly to gravity, or rather
the underlying process that creates gravity.
Clouds would seem to be evidence that wator vapor
is lighter than air, in fact it is possible some way for water
droplets or even ice crystals to "float", which is harder
to understand.
I think steam at atmospheric pressure has about
200 times the volume of water, and at constant standard
temperature and pressure, there are the same number of
molecules in a given volume, making density comparisons
confusing.
It is amazing just how many things will be bouyed
by moving air, and even more amazing how many things
can be moved by moving water.
The mayor with the death wish may find out a lot
about these things, since the wind, surge and waves will
probably be moving from east to west, not from straight
out in the gulf, it is possible boats, barges, floating oil
rigs, partially full tanks from refinery tank famrs, and
no telling how many wooden houses and treas, will
probably be carried along with the wind and waves
at 50 or 60 MPH, and that could demolish any building
no matter how solid, even if there is no burning fuel or
chemicals on the surface of the water.
People should get away from the bay(ou)s,
there could be unimaginable things happen, none
of them good.
I think people that understand physics and
chemistry well are the ones who evacuate first,
I can imagine things in a hurricane that scare
me to think about it, and Rita will exceed my
imagination by a great amount.
Joe Fischer

I stand corrected.

[Joe Fischer]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:59:35 GMT, "George"

Post by George
I stand corrected.

Thanks, now maybe somebody will correct the cable news
channels, they keep asking the stupid questions "will the Galveston
sea wall protect Galveston" , and "will the Galveston sea wall hold".

The bays go all around Galveston (island), and around
many other islands, so the sea wall is totally unimportant near a
major hurricane land fall.

The wall does protect against south winds and wave
action on top of a moderate surge, especially if the eye goes
west of Galveston.
But in a direct hit, or if the eye goes east of Galveston
the winds will be from the east almost parallel to the coast, or
even across the open bays into the back side of Galveston,
and other islands.

In my opinion, these stupid questions are killing
people, by giving them false hope, and suggesting very
incorrect facts exist.

The winds parallel to the coast is a much bigger
problem than a surge with waves on top, because of
the large number of boats, floating oil drilling rigs, many
gasoline tank farms, barges, and even automobiles and
trucks that will float and become battering rams.

Considering the predicted path, I would not
only not be surprised if, but I seriously expect all the
islands along the coast in that area, to be totally
bare of structures after this very unusually large
and powerful hurricane.
There are even worse scenarios possible,
that I don't even want to think about.

Every single person should LEAVE the
islands, better safe than sorry, better safe than
dead,.

The track looks like it continues NW,
it will take a real tight curve to avoid going
directly over parts of Houston.

Joe Fischer